RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

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RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby cquinby » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:00 pm

I have been eying this beast for a bit now and Cliff knew I was interested in getting my hands on one. He called me last week to touch base and asked if I would build one for him and fly it for the summer. Of course I said, YUP! He told me it only takes a hour to build the mechanics and get the fuse together so the bet was on.

6 hours into it (mail man was anxious to get the damn box out of his car so I must have been his first stop as he was a good 5 hours early today) and I am about 50% done with the build. :dribble:

My plan was to build to spec using the electric package he combos with the kit, only difference is I have my own ESC to use right now so I let him off the hook on that one.

Here is what will be in it:

PhoenixTech 500kv motor (not sure what the power is or poles just yet)
MKS DS1210 servos for cyclic
Tail servo missing in action but should be a Hyperion DS20GCD (Scratch that, ended up using a Futaba 9254)
Castle Ice 120HV - Cliff ships a 80HV with the combo
Castle Bec Pro
Black Widow gyro (this is not included in the package but I have had great luck with them and chose it for this build)
XPS RX
10s setup (I will get into this a bit later, kit is designed for 12s)

The kit uses the Compactor mechanics which look to be a clone of the Goblin (never seen a goblin in person but this sure looks familiar!)

So lets get started.

Package arrived at 10:30 AM along with some aluminum for Rick's parts. The aluminum was tossed to the side somewhere and I grabbed my knife to get the big :censored: box opened.
as350-01.jpg

Double boxed, this is good!
as350-02.jpg


Now time to open. Everything was packed nice and neat. The cardboard formers where glued to the sides of the box making it a bit of a BI@TCH to get the fuse out. Best way was to just cut the formers so the fuse could clear. Before doing this, the flat narrow box on the top holds the blades and tail boom, cut the end open and slide the parts out as the box is glued to the main box and you may risk damage trying to remove the box before removing the parts.
as350-06.jpg

as350-04.jpg

as350-13.jpg


Once everything is removed you have a table full of goodies!
as350-15.jpg


What is this mysterious piece of white paper??? A Manual!!!! :laugh:
as350-16.jpg


Here is some rivet detail and such. The rivets are LARGE but I can't complain as I didn't have to do them. :beer:
as350-18.jpg

as350-19.jpg

as350-20.jpg

as350-21.jpg

as350-22.jpg

as350-23.jpg


Told you the rivets are huge!
as350-24.jpg



So far, from what I can see you get a lot of bang for your buck here, this is the best finish and kit I have yet to see from RCAerodyne, if I was looking for a quick fix I would consider this one for sure.

Back in a bit with the next round.
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quin?by, verb, 'kwin-bE:
1 a: To crash (your helicopter) on the maiden flight.
2 a: To roll (your helicopter) over, destroying the main blades.
e.g. I quinbied my helicopter yesterday. Don't quinby the helicopter. He who quinbies often, has a good relationship with the UPS driver. If you're not quinbying, you're not flying hard enough.
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby Copter777 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:04 pm

Another great looking kit along with the 429
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby crmodels » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:23 pm

Sweet at least I will be able to bounce questions of of you!
27yrs in the hobby and it keeps getting better!

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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby cquinby » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:45 pm

On to the next bit.

Lets look at the accessories. The holes for the accessories are already in the fuse so they are easy to install.

Here we have the cyclic sticks, antennas, etc...
as350-26.jpg


Wire strikes, tail skid and the light controller (yup lights are already installed and wired up!
as350-27.jpg


The horizontal stabs look good and the position lights are installed, just run the wired thru the boom and have at it!
as350-28.jpg


I will say the lenses used will work but are not scale! I guess I just like using my custom lenses but that is for special occasions!

Ah, the seats! Upgrade from the old vario kits that I have had. I thought about painting these is some custom color but they give the illusion of a tan vinyl seat so I will keep them the way they are for now.
as350-29.jpg


Here is the IP, not bad and will do the job nicely!

as350-39.jpg


So far I like what I see with the woodwork install. They actually filleted the glue bead! I think this will be ok without the usual hysol fix.
as350-49.jpg

as350-50.jpg

as350-51.jpg


Now we get into the meat of the mechanics.

I tried to find gear info but there was no mention in the manual as to what gears where in this beast. After counting them a few times I came up with the following:
Pinion Pulley 22 tooth
Main pulley 78 tooth
Belt is a 3mm GT2 Gates (wow, a good belt!) and 12.5mm (I think that is the size as I have not measured it yet but I think that is the next size up from 9mm)
Next is the second stage
Drive pinion is 20 tooth
main gear is 78 tooth
I have not measured the thickness yet but look to be 15mm (they are beefy)

Overall gear ratio is 13.845:1

Frames are G10 from what I can tell.

Main shaft is 12mm with 4mm jesus bolt.

Info on Main Shaft Bearings

Please note that the bearing for the main shaft are not your garden variety Radial Bearings that we are used to. Roban did not use a thrust bearing under the upper bearing dome to deal with the weight load of the helicopter like Vario does. Instead, they went with Angular Contact bearings which are designed for both a radial and axial load without the need for a thrust bearing under the upper plate. The only problem with using these bearings is that if you don't pre-load them properly you will get both axial and radial play in the main shaft. If you notice this do not assume your bearings are bad, you will need to shim under the gears on the main shaft to properly pre-load the bearings. These bearings should provide long service without issue as long as they are loaded. Also note that AC bearings are very fragile when removing the main shaft, they can and often will separate because you will be pulling the shaft in the opposite direction of the pre-load which will cause the races to separate. If this happens your best to just buy a new bearing.

The bearing number is 71901AC and can be found at VXB but prepare to crap your pants at $50+ a bearing. Boca was around $400 last time I checked and it was not truly the correct bearing.
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit12986 (these have ceramic balls and I am not convinced they are worth the money)

I did a little research and found that these bearings are common in the bicycle word for wheel hubs. Rest assured, you can get them for much less: http://www.bikehubstore.com/product-p/bb71901.htm

I will get into the 10s issue when I get to the electronics part of the build later.
as350-30.jpg


Here is the rotor head, looks to be a hybrid and better version of the Plug-n-play head. Everything is smooth and feels good. Checked some screws and loctite was good. 4mm jesus bolt along with a locking collar. Also the grips are keyed so you can flip the grip for left or right hand rotation and always be able to put the blade bolts in from the top like a vario rotor head, very nice.
as350-32.jpg


You can see here the hub is 2 pieces allowing them to use a more robust spindle shaft that is not held on with set screws like the original plug-n-play rotor head.
as350-33.jpg


Here we have the tail box including the metal gear upgrades. Nice and smooth.
as350-34.jpg


Next post will be about finishing up the mechanics. More to come!
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quin?by, verb, 'kwin-bE:
1 a: To crash (your helicopter) on the maiden flight.
2 a: To roll (your helicopter) over, destroying the main blades.
e.g. I quinbied my helicopter yesterday. Don't quinby the helicopter. He who quinbies often, has a good relationship with the UPS driver. If you're not quinbying, you're not flying hard enough.
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby cquinby » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:52 pm

crmodels wrote:Sweet at least I will be able to bounce questions of of you!

absolutely... ask away... I can see there will be some goofy things to figure out here specifically relating to the servo install. One of the biggest problems we face with mechanics that were designed for 3D helis is correct servo / linkage setup for scale. Just takes tweaking and special attention to get correct.
Chris

Do what you gotta do!!!

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quin?by, verb, 'kwin-bE:
1 a: To crash (your helicopter) on the maiden flight.
2 a: To roll (your helicopter) over, destroying the main blades.
e.g. I quinbied my helicopter yesterday. Don't quinby the helicopter. He who quinbies often, has a good relationship with the UPS driver. If you're not quinbying, you're not flying hard enough.
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby Joel Rosenzweig » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:01 pm

Wow, that looks awesome. It's great to see the photos of all the goodies. And wow, those pieces that are included look fantastic. I can't wait to see this all built. It looks like Christmas came 9 months early!!!

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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby cquinby » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:29 pm

Joel Rosenzweig wrote:Wow, that looks awesome. It's great to see the photos of all the goodies. And wow, those pieces that are included look fantastic. I can't wait to see this all built. It looks like Christmas came 9 months early!!!

Joel

Christmas until Cliff asks for it back! :blowup: Oh well, I get to play with it and that is all I wanted to do anyway. Got a bit more to post here in a few and then it is "let the hysol dry" for the rest of the night.
Chris

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quin?by, verb, 'kwin-bE:
1 a: To crash (your helicopter) on the maiden flight.
2 a: To roll (your helicopter) over, destroying the main blades.
e.g. I quinbied my helicopter yesterday. Don't quinby the helicopter. He who quinbies often, has a good relationship with the UPS driver. If you're not quinbying, you're not flying hard enough.
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby Joel Rosenzweig » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:34 pm

I'm guessing he lets you keep it. You're doing a service by building one up, finding whatever issues you find, telling Cliff about it, making mods, flying it. It gives the model some really good exposure, which is valuable to all of us. I've been looking at the AS350's on his site too, and drooling a bit over them. Seeing a build up like this is great.

I am curious about your 10S decision.. I know we both fly a lot of 5S packs, and from that standpoint, it makes sense to go 10S if you can. Did you have another reason?

Joel
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby cquinby » Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:04 pm

Continuing on with the mechanics.

Again, I chose to follow the directions and dang if it didn't hose me!
as350-40.jpg


The first part the manual has you start bolting the tail boom on and the last part is installing the motor. Let me tell you now, INSTALL THE MOTOR FIRST!!! You have to take the frames apart to install the motor and pulley, there is no other way to do it as I tried for a good 20 minutes before pulling off a side.

Here we have one side frame removed and installing the motor.
as350-48.jpg


The motor is 500kv and according to Cliff it has 8 poles, I will verify this later with a meter. I assume it must be around 2,000 watts continuous with probably a 3,000 watt burst. I will watch this motor close at the start but I am sure it will do fine. We used one of smaller PhoenixTech motors in Joel's 500 AS350 and it performed very well and ran very cool.
as350-47.jpg


Next I put the head on and clamped it down.
as350-41.jpg


Next you install the shaft bearings into the tail boom (lube the rubber bearing holders with a generous amount of dish soap and they will slide right down the tube) and secure the tube into the holders in the frames. No need to remove the holders from the frames, there are access holes to get to the clamping screws.
as350-42.jpg


Not sure if one really needs the boom supports but I did install them anyway just to build per the instructions. As always, the aluminum ends are not machined with a angle so you will bend the G10 frames a bit when connecting to the boom support. I didn't see any spacers in the kit to prevent this but this same issue seems to crop up on most birds I have ever built that use boom supports. I don't think it will be a problem.

I changed the way the boom supports mount, I flipped the boom mount over. So the support goes from the top holes on the mechanics to the bottom side of the boom.
as350-43.jpg

as350-44.jpg


Next we get to install the servos. There was a problem here as the MKS servos seem to have a longer bolt spacing than the servos this kit was designed to use. To solve this issue I slotted the rear bolt holes going thru the frames back about 4mm so I could slide the back mount to fit the servos. This can easily be done with a dremel.
as350-45.jpg


Now on to the servos. They are MKS DS1210's and I have looked at these before as they seem to offer a ton of power, fast speeds, digital and titanium geared. However, there is a warning on MKS's site stating not to use them on flybarless helicopters and also to run them at 5.5v even though the box states 6.0v. The fear with flybarless is not the torque on the servo but the input from the gyros on the flight stabilizer. According to MKS this will lead to a premature failure of the servo motor. So I will give them a shot and see how they hold up running on 5.5v. They seem to be very smooth when rotating by hand now all that is left is seeing how they will handle the BlackWidow.

http://www.mks-servo.com.tw/goods.php?g ... ds1210_faq
http://www.mks-servo.com.tw/goods.php?goods_id=DS1210

as350-46.jpg


Next was on to the skids so I could get the body going and glue the tail boom on.

The skids just slip thru the holes on the side of the fuselage and are secured using 3mm bolts and a washer. The front skids are secured with a 3mm bolt thru the top, the rear skids have a 3mm bolt going in from the front of the fuse. Both are secured with 3mm blind nuts (another advancement!!!!) :dribble: It takes a little tweaking of the rear struts to align the holes but nothing major, took only a couple minutes to get them on.
as350-52.jpg


Here you can see the pop-out sliding door. It is a little stiff but functions and I don't see any reason you could not fly with the door open. I have not looked to see if it can be removed though.
as350-53.jpg


Here is the big swing out door. This fit of the doors is pretty dang good, I have nothing to complain about here.
as350-54.jpg


While waiting for the tail boom to dry, I did a test fit of the seats and IP. Just a little trimming on the seat base and all was good, they fit pretty nice. A couple of the seats had cracks on the sides but a little CA and that issue was fixed, nothing to write home about. I will glue them in tomorrow evening with some, well not sure yet... Probably epoxy but may use some canopy glue so I can pop them out easy if needed.

as350-55.jpg

as350-56.jpg

as350-57.jpg


Well that is all for today. Hopefully tomorrow after I get some work done on the lathe I can continue this build. If not it will be sometime this weekend.
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quin?by, verb, 'kwin-bE:
1 a: To crash (your helicopter) on the maiden flight.
2 a: To roll (your helicopter) over, destroying the main blades.
e.g. I quinbied my helicopter yesterday. Don't quinby the helicopter. He who quinbies often, has a good relationship with the UPS driver. If you're not quinbying, you're not flying hard enough.
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby cquinby » Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:09 pm

Joel Rosenzweig wrote:I'm guessing he lets you keep it. You're doing a service by building one up, finding whatever issues you find, telling Cliff about it, making mods, flying it. It gives the model some really good exposure, which is valuable to all of us. I've been looking at the AS350's on his site too, and drooling a bit over them. Seeing a build up like this is great.

I am curious about your 10S decision.. I know we both fly a lot of 5S packs, and from that standpoint, it makes sense to go 10S if you can. Did you have another reason?

Joel


Joel,

I ran the numbers and I'm not sure 10s is going to work with this KV motor is the only issue. It may and I am going to see how it goes but I think the HS will be to low at 95% on the governor as that HS will be around 1,140 ish... That is a little lower than I like on 700mm blades (I still need to measure those but I think that is the length). The blades are semi symmetrical and narrow chord so it just has me wondering how it will do. I will post more info about the blades and such as I go with length, weight, profile, balance etc... I think they are a pretty important part of this kit that is a added bonus since they are painted!
Chris

Do what you gotta do!!!

My Blog
quin?by, verb, 'kwin-bE:
1 a: To crash (your helicopter) on the maiden flight.
2 a: To roll (your helicopter) over, destroying the main blades.
e.g. I quinbied my helicopter yesterday. Don't quinby the helicopter. He who quinbies often, has a good relationship with the UPS driver. If you're not quinbying, you're not flying hard enough.
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby Joel Rosenzweig » Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:20 pm

I am somewhat blown away by the amount of progress that can be accomplished in a day.. and not even a full day, at that!

So, good find on the MKS servos. My next question is, why do you want to run them then? Is it just to see how they hold up in practice? What you posted seems like an excellent reason _not_ to run those servos with a FBL unit.

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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby cquinby » Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:27 pm

Joel Rosenzweig wrote:I am somewhat blown away by the amount of progress that can be accomplished in a day.. and not even a full day, at that!

So, good find on the MKS servos. My next question is, why do you want to run them then? Is it just to see how they hold up in practice? What you posted seems like an excellent reason _not_ to run those servos with a FBL unit.

Joel


Well lets say this is what Cliff sent me. Beggars cant be choosers! I tried to get a Naza-h off him and that didn't go very far!!!

He has been using them for a while now along with a few of his pilots from what I understand and they have been working without any issues. The question is, HOW LONG??? I don't know but I am curious also and since it is not on my dime, just my time, I will give it a shot. I can see these working fine for scale but 3D would be a different story in my book. I found some YouTube videos a while back where some guys where blasting the crap out of these servos on a FBL 3D setup and the bird was locked in, however, I have no idea how long they lasted or if they just tossed them in to show they work and that is all.

I figure they will last longer in this bird than they will in Mike's 429! :laugh:

PS: I was considering these for the super secret project so I could continue the build but backed out... Maybe this will let me know if they are any good but I still don't think I will risk that project...
Chris

Do what you gotta do!!!

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quin?by, verb, 'kwin-bE:
1 a: To crash (your helicopter) on the maiden flight.
2 a: To roll (your helicopter) over, destroying the main blades.
e.g. I quinbied my helicopter yesterday. Don't quinby the helicopter. He who quinbies often, has a good relationship with the UPS driver. If you're not quinbying, you're not flying hard enough.
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby Joel Rosenzweig » Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:32 pm

PS: I was considering these for the super secret project so I could continue the build but backed out... Maybe this will let me know if they are any good but I still don't think I will risk that project...


I see the gleam in your eye..!

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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby cquinby » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:40 pm

Well today was a long day in the shop working on Rick's parts but I was able to get that done and take a break. I only put a hour into this tonight and didn't get much done but then again, I kinda did.

I started the day with gluing the horizontals on after waiting 24 hours for the hysol to dry. Run the light wires thru the tail and glue! Just make sure to keep the straight and that always is a challenge for me! :#*%:

Notice how little of a gap there is around the glue joint, pretty well done.

as350-1-04.jpg


Checking the joint where the tail was glues on, other than me hosing the hysol on and getting a bit in the seem it turned out great.

as350-1-05.jpg


I started off with trying to see how much adjustment was available on the control rods while the horizontal fins where drying. Luckily it looks like there will be no problem setting all control arms perpendicular and having 5 degrees of pitch in the blades for hover. I still need to connect a RX and test the travels so I may still need to change the servo arms with wheels but we will cross that bridge when we get there.

Here you can see the basic setup.
as350-1-02.jpg

as350-1-03.jpg


Everything looks like it will work well as I continue to setup the electronics.

Here are some shots of the aerials and such, i just shoved them in and didn't even bother gluing them. They hold very well as is but I may just put a dab of CA on the back side just to make sure they don't ever come out with a low fly-by targeting Mike...

as350-1-06.jpg


as350-1-07.jpg


Wire strikes and gluing the windshield in with some canopy glue.

as350-1-08.jpg


Cockpit installed and glues in from the bottom with just some CA so I can pull the seats if needed later.

as350-1-09.jpg


How about a inside shot! Not bad...
as350-1-11.jpg


Well since there was glue drying and I need to go get more tools out of the shop (don't want to go out there because deep down I know I have a crap load of aluminum chips to clean up and don't want to) I decided to pull the blades and see what I was up against.

I was pleasantly surprised to see the blades individually packed. No damage and the look pretty good.

as350-1-12.jpg


Now lets get to the nitty gritty.

Blade chord is 45mm

as350-1-14.jpg


Flat bottom blade

as350-1-16.jpg


CG on blade is about center, maybe a shade towards the tip.

Weight is about 150g (all three blades were within 0.8g on the scales but this is just a indication of consistency. What matters is if they balance against each other.

as350-1-18.jpg


Now for the surprise... I am not joking here but the blades balanced well enough out of the box that I will not touch them! I was shocked but knew it was going to be pretty good based on the mass of the blades.

as350-1-27.jpg


Heck they even include some balance tape (a bit to light for my liking but should work if needed) just in case.

as350-1-21.jpg


Tail blades are nice. 105mm fully painted and 7.5g each.

as350-1-24.jpg


as350-1-22.jpg


as350-1-25.jpg


So that is it for tonight. Tomorrow I plan to start getting the radio gear setup once I can get past the aluminum mess in the shop and access my soldering station. Need to wire up the ESC, motor and charge up my MC-24 so I can start getting the radio gear done.

See you all tomorrow with another update. :drug:
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quin?by, verb, 'kwin-bE:
1 a: To crash (your helicopter) on the maiden flight.
2 a: To roll (your helicopter) over, destroying the main blades.
e.g. I quinbied my helicopter yesterday. Don't quinby the helicopter. He who quinbies often, has a good relationship with the UPS driver. If you're not quinbying, you're not flying hard enough.
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby Medic 33 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:24 pm

Wow... you get so much more work done than someone else we know.... who has a 429 and a 'Crane in the shop... not that I want to mention names.

I will be very interested in how those MKS DS1210's hold up, as I was about to get 3 for a flybarless project (missed the MKS warning...)
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby Keyrigger » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:45 pm

It certainly does look like a good bang for your buck helicopter. If you want more detail, you can find seats, cockpit accessories, internal and external detailing to your hearts' content and the depth of your pockets. For 98% of the scale flyers, this type of heli is exactly what they are looking for. Quick to build and get in the air, even if you need to improve a few things along the way. Most experienced modelers will not be stopped by little niggles in the fit and finish, they just motor right on through it. Only the beginners ( they shouldn't be buying this size and type of scale heli, anyway) will have trouble if it does not fit perfectly and some trimming is needed. Have fun with the build. I got my maiden of my TOW Defender today so I am happier than a pig in s^%t. Take care and thanks for the tips, Chris.

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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby gonzalom » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:48 pm

Very nice Chris!!!! :fro: :fro:

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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby JestRR » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:33 pm

well cliff decided to take it easy on chris with this one. He told me it should have gone together in about an hour........look whos still working.

The 429 is not a plug and play kit. Its for advanced modelers who can figure stuff out with just a box of parts to chose from. EVEN says that on the web site. And yes the crane is a little out there but its a process!!

And i still have to make landing gear for customers too.
oh and one other thing....
I HAVE A JOB!!
so to speak!
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby EKIMRIS » Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:45 am

cquinby wrote:
Joel Rosenzweig wrote:I'm guessing he lets you keep it. You're doing a service by building one up, finding whatever issues you find, telling Cliff about it, making mods, flying it. It gives the model some really good exposure, which is valuable to all of us. I've been looking at the AS350's on his site too, and drooling a bit over them. Seeing a build up like this is great.

I am curious about your 10S decision.. I know we both fly a lot of 5S packs, and from that standpoint, it makes sense to go 10S if you can. Did you have another reason?

Joel


Joel,

I ran the numbers and I'm not sure 10s is going to work with this KV motor is the only issue. It may and I am going to see how it goes but I think the HS will be to low at 95% on the governor as that HS will be around 1,140 ish... That is a little lower than I like on 700mm blades (I still need to measure those but I think that is the length). The blades are semi symmetrical and narrow chord so it just has me wondering how it will do. I will post more info about the blades and such as I go with length, weight, profile, balance etc... I think they are a pretty important part of this kit that is a added bonus since they are painted!


The setup in promo vid is flown on 1100 RPMs. It is a little low, but it feels pretty lightweight on that low RPM.
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby cquinby » Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:59 am

EKIMRIS wrote:The setup in promo vid is flown on 1100 RPMs. It is a little low, but it feels pretty lightweight on that low RPM.


Ekimrist, I believe you that is flew at 1100 rpm and as you state it is a little low. I don't like to run the Castle Governor above 90% so that will limit me to a HS of 1071.

Here is some sample numbers I ran to find a possible solution with either changing out the motor or changing the pulley off the motor.

Standard gear ratio inserted into the ScaleRCHelis.com Electric Calc (viewtopic.php?f=42&t=9525)
gear ratio.jpg


Here is the max RPM achievable with the provided setup on 10s (I don't recommend running 95% as you just barely give the governor enough room to do it's job).
10s-1.jpg


As you can see it is 1,130 RPM. This would probably work and I will try it however I feel this bird would benefit from a 1,250 - 1,300 head speed.

Here is the info on 12s, the RPM is right where I would want it:

12s @ 90% = 1,285 rpm
12s-90.jpg


12s @ 95% = 1,357 rpm
12s-95.jpg


I like the numbers for 12s, they are perfect for this bird but I need to work on the 10s setup.

Option 1 - Change the motor KV.

Unfortunately this is easier said than done as we don't have a lot of choices for KV's in this range.

I did a estimate with 1,300 RPM at 90% throttle to give me some room to play and I get a recommend KV of about 607 rpm.
10 guess.jpg


Now, I looked briefly for a 600kv motor in this size range and didn't come up with much and knew there was the trusty old 560kv motors from Hyperion, Scorpion and such but I want to keep this on a budget. Also when running number for 560kv it didn't quite come out to what I want.

So it is time to go to option 2 Gear ratio change...

I started playing with numbers and basing them off 90% and the 500kv motor. What I found was a simple pulley change would be the best solution oh and cheaper than finding a new motor. :laugh:

So I changed the motor pulley from 22 tooth to 27 tooth in the calculator resulting in a 11.271:1 ratio

gear ratio2.jpg


This results in a RPM range (80%-95%) of 1,174 rpm at the low end and 1,394 at the high end with 1,320 rpm at 90%.

10s-low.jpg


10s-high.jpg


10s-27.jpg


So these are just the numbers I have ran if I find I need to up the HS a bit. If I feel the bird is not to my liking I will change to a 27 tooth pulley but also will need to verify that the belt will still fit as there is some adjustability but not sure if there is enough.
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quin?by, verb, 'kwin-bE:
1 a: To crash (your helicopter) on the maiden flight.
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e.g. I quinbied my helicopter yesterday. Don't quinby the helicopter. He who quinbies often, has a good relationship with the UPS driver. If you're not quinbying, you're not flying hard enough.
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby cquinby » Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:14 am

Medic 33 wrote:I will be very interested in how those MKS DS1210's hold up, as I was about to get 3 for a flybarless project (missed the MKS warning...)


Me too! :laugh: I don't get a lot of flying in during the year since homes where built behind my house but I will try and get this one out as much as I can this year to see how they work.

Keyrigger wrote:For 98% of the scale flyers, this type of heli is exactly what they are looking for. Quick to build and get in the air, even if you need to improve a few things along the way. Most experienced modelers will not be stopped by little niggles in the fit and finish, they just motor right on through it. Only the beginners ( they shouldn't be buying this size and type of scale heli, anyway) will have trouble if it does not fit perfectly and some trimming is needed.


Don, I think anyone who has some FBL experience on the 3D machines will be fine with this as a first scale conquest. Remember, there is no phasing of the rotor head with this bird and that solves one of the biggest stumbling blocks for a new scale flyer. However, there is the learning curve of setting up a properly flying scale aircraft and I intend to address the setup as we go to make sure those who are converting from 3D to scale (well giving it a try anyway) can have a reference point to setup up the aircraft in a proper manner.

Got my coffee and time to head out to the shop and find my radio, a couple batteries and some other things to get on with the build today... Well that is if I don't decide to take of on one of the motorcycles since it looks to be a sunny day today! :laugh:
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quin?by, verb, 'kwin-bE:
1 a: To crash (your helicopter) on the maiden flight.
2 a: To roll (your helicopter) over, destroying the main blades.
e.g. I quinbied my helicopter yesterday. Don't quinby the helicopter. He who quinbies often, has a good relationship with the UPS driver. If you're not quinbying, you're not flying hard enough.
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby joeb » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:10 am

Nice looking out of the box heli with some cool accessories
Just on MKS servos - I got as new gimbal for my hexa and it came with MKS servos - theDJI 900MHz data down link sent them crazy (only when the aerial was mounted vertically -horizontal it went away)
Tried it on Futaba servos and no interference
I need to find some one else who's running MKS to see if its a brand issue cause I'd hate to turn it on at the field and cause carnage - i would not be popular
Cheers
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PS know the feeling about the chips - mines been sitting there winking at me for the last 2 weeks
On the J Curve of all things Heli I'm Still heading down hill fast
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby cquinby » Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:06 pm

joeb wrote:Nice looking out of the box heli with some cool accessories
Just on MKS servos - I got as new gimbal for my hexa and it came with MKS servos - theDJI 900MHz data down link sent them crazy (only when the aerial was mounted vertically -horizontal it went away)
Tried it on Futaba servos and no interference
I need to find some one else who's running MKS to see if its a brand issue cause I'd hate to turn it on at the field and cause carnage - i would not be popular
Cheers
Joe
PS know the feeling about the chips - mines been sitting there winking at me for the last 2 weeks


Joe, it may be just the radiation pattern and the proximity of the arial to the servos. I have had issues in the past with my 2.4ghz RX being to close to my SK360 and causing it to not initialize within 2 inches of each other. 900mhz is better at going thru material too so that may also be playing a part in it.
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quin?by, verb, 'kwin-bE:
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2 a: To roll (your helicopter) over, destroying the main blades.
e.g. I quinbied my helicopter yesterday. Don't quinby the helicopter. He who quinbies often, has a good relationship with the UPS driver. If you're not quinbying, you're not flying hard enough.
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby cquinby » Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:41 pm

Well another day down and should be finishing this up tomorrow. Spent a lot of time today fighting servo installation but that is normal as I knew there would be some geometry issues here.

First lets start with the tail setup. Well, first thing was I snapped a ball link right down the center threading it onto the tail control rod. Not sure why but I did. So I ran out to grab some another ball link out of the shop. Well, that didn't work as all I had handy where vario ball links and they work with 4.8mm balls and these are 5mm... Ran back out again to find a vario ball with a 2mm stud and luckily I did find one out there even though I know I have a bag full of them somewhere!

as350-2-01.jpg


Next was putting the tail servo in but man was that a fricken PIA to get it in a position where the wire would not rub on the frames, the servo would not hit the supports, the servo would not hang too low and interfere with installing the mechanics etc.... After a couple of hours flipping this, flipping that, ripping the boom off and cursing at anything in my way, I decided to go drag the motorcycles out since it was nice... :beer: Always makes you feel better!

First, I had to move the supports to the top side of the boom.
as350-2-02.jpg


Once I did that it opened up more options and only had to fiddle with it for about a hour before I got it where everything would work. Part of the problem is I think the tail control rod is about a inch too long...

Here are some failed attempts.
1. Servo frame rubbing on the rear of the mechanics.
as350-2-03.jpg


2. Servo wire rubbing on the frames
as350-2-04.jpg


Anyway here is where it finally ended up, this is looking from the bottom side of the mechanics. I will trim the servo horn so it doesn't interfere with installation into the fuse.
as350-2-11.jpg

as350-2-12.jpg


So now with the tail servo installed it is time to get on with getting the electronics soldered up and ready to start programming.

Here are the goods... (sorry, have to hide the ESC version)
as350-2-14.jpg


Wait a minute, no I don't there is info posted about these on RCG... Enjoy the new ESC!

I already wired up the ESC a while back so we will move onto the motor.

Solder on the bullets. Nice, hot and clean
as350-2-17.jpg

as350-2-21.jpg


Now the Castle Bec Pro

Tin those connectors!
as350-2-19.jpg

as350-2-20.jpg


Now we grab every tool we have. Time to connect the BEC and ESC to program them
as350-2-22.jpg


One thing I always do is check the output voltage on the BEC, sometimes they do not put out what you ask them to.
as350-2-24.jpg


Fire up the castle link:
link1.jpg


Now you should see the castle product that you plugged in, well at least something works right today!!!

link2.jpg


Check the firmware, all good there!

link3.jpg


Set my voltage and update.
link4.jpg


Now here is a lesson for the day. When checking the voltage of the BEC, don't do it while plugged into the USB port! It won't read what you want.
as350-2-25.jpg


Unplug the BEC from the USB port and now you can check the voltage. I set it to 5.5v and this is what I get.
as350-2-26.jpg


Next post will cover the ESC setup. Back in a few.
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quin?by, verb, 'kwin-bE:
1 a: To crash (your helicopter) on the maiden flight.
2 a: To roll (your helicopter) over, destroying the main blades.
e.g. I quinbied my helicopter yesterday. Don't quinby the helicopter. He who quinbies often, has a good relationship with the UPS driver. If you're not quinbying, you're not flying hard enough.
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Re: RCAerodyne Super Scale AS350 - 700 Size

Postby cquinby » Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:10 pm

Now onto programming the ESC.

We plug the ESC into the castle link and give the esc at least 4 lipo cells to connect.
edge1.jpg


Since we need to calibrate the ESC before we can set the Governor we follow these steps

Set the ESC to Heli mode and fixed endpoints. I like 0 for spoolup rate and HS change rate to 2 (I don't change HS's so it is a mute point however I am going to try something that will use this one of these days).
edge2.jpg


Brake tab should be grayed out.
edge3.jpg


Cutoffs tab, I chose to tell it what voltage to cut off at (I should raise this to 32v and probably will later)
edge4.jpg


Motor tab, I am going to run at 8Khz at first and will try 12Khz if the motor is happy,
edge5.jpg


The other tab has some new features for the Edge... (shhhhh you didn't see this)
edge6.jpg


Logging tab has a new feature too... The way I have it set up is if the buffer is full it will clear out the oldest 50% and record the current flight, this should in theory allow for data retrieval after any flight without having to clear the buffer manually.
edge7.jpg


Now we perform the calibration using this method


Once that is complete we move onto setting up the Set RPM governor
First we need to tell the ESC how many cells we are running
edgegov1.jpg


Next we give it our gear ratio and motor info
edgegov2.jpg


Now I tell the ESC what HS I want, having run the numbers already and knowing 1140 is about all I can do I inserted that into the Desired HS.
edgegov3.jpg


Now I tried 1150 and the software told me NO WAY! Just as I expected but tried it anyway. The Castle Governor will complain if you input a HS that uses more than 95% throttle, it wants the extra 5% for head room.

Here is the message I got when I clicked the info button next to my desired HS.
edgegov4.jpg



Now the ESC is setup and ready to go. Next we will get into the BlackWidow programming and setup.
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quin?by, verb, 'kwin-bE:
1 a: To crash (your helicopter) on the maiden flight.
2 a: To roll (your helicopter) over, destroying the main blades.
e.g. I quinbied my helicopter yesterday. Don't quinby the helicopter. He who quinbies often, has a good relationship with the UPS driver. If you're not quinbying, you're not flying hard enough.
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